Raid Attendance Points (RAP) - [60] Foundation on Mar/07/06 @ 10:21 pm

he following guidelines apply to all Boss raids for ZG/MC/AQ/BWL/ONYXIA.

LAST EDITED: 3/27/2006

You will begin with Zero RAP (Raid Attendance Points).
You earn a total of 5 RAP points for each Boss raid that you contribute at least 1-2 hours of your time for. (farming only runs do not count) Accumulated RAP are capped off at 50 regardless of how many raids you attend. Thus, you will have earned your maximum number of RAP in 10 raids.

RAP are earned per CHARACTER, not per account.

You must spend ALL of your RAP to roll for an epic/blue quality drop, and certain greens.

To spend points, you must /roll 1-50 and then add your current RAP to the value of that roll, this will result in a maximum roll of 100 for someone who has amassed their 50 points already (and a minumum roll of 51).

Raid Officers will update all player’s earned RAP after they have either won a roll, or completed a 1+ hour run without a drop.

Players attending with alts to accommodate the group (ie, come as one, then logging to switch to another mid hunt) are allowed to choose which character they want to have earn the RAP, though if they roll/win an item their points are Zero'd for the attending character. (To qualify, both chars must have beeen on that run for the minimum 1 hour "each")

You can only earn a maximum of 5 points in one day.

Points to consider:

• These guidelines are a work in progress. I will be modifying them as we go.


• I will be choosing Raid Officers before our first run, these people will help to update other people’s RAP.


• The points we’re working off to kick start our system were recorded by my installation of CT Raid Tracker.


• I have 2 ideas concerning crafted items and mat harvesting I will introduce later if this system is effective.


• I'm providing a PDF Spreadsheet of the data I used to derive the current starting points for our RAP system. There are 2 runs for sure missing from this tally, the best I can do for now.

There are lots of questions to answer still, be patient. I will respond to questions posted in this thread if they are short and concise ... And now for something completely different:

BOOM!!! ... WE GOT DRAMA!!!

comment #1 by [60] Valken on Mar/07/06 @ 10:26 pm

bah, second!

comment #2 by [60] Veldrin on Mar/07/06 @ 10:32 pm

1/10

comment #3 by [60] Dwarfhealer on Mar/07/06 @ 10:35 pm

This looks pretty good

comment #4 by [60] Martagon on Mar/07/06 @ 10:48 pm

Looks good. Have we determined a raid attendance policy for those that want to go, but there is no room? Is it possible to swap out some who have been on every single raid and are at a max of 50 points?
Thanks for all your work on this, Pesh.

comment #5 by [60] Foundation on Mar/07/06 @ 11:08 pm

If a player didnt get to participate in the run for at least an hour, they do not get the points for attending that raid, even if they were on standby.

I realize this is a special situation, though it is largely due to circumstances outside my control (growing pains). If the majority of this system turns out to be a success, I already have a couple ideas as to how we can help those people out. Hard to express here atm, but I have some ideas.

comment #6 by [60] Harken on Mar/07/06 @ 11:29 pm

Looks good to me Pesh.

comment #7 by [60] Foundation on Mar/07/06 @ 11:37 pm

I modified the requirement to account for 1 hour attendance. I think this is more casual friendly, and also takes into account peeople who don't fit into a raid straight from the beginning.

Also, you are always able to roll on an item. Someone else may have an edge on you because they have more points stored, but they also might roll a 1 while you rolla 50. In which case, unless they had the maximum points stored, you'd still have a chance.

Keep in mind, the system is not designed to divvy loot to people based on their first raid, most people will have been on 2-3 and already have 10-15 points accumulated as a result. So its a rare situation that someone with 50 points is rolling against someone with 1 point. The system instead is tailored to rewarding people for a loosing streak.

comment #8 by [60] Thamoradra on Mar/08/06 @ 2:06 am

Sounds good to me : ) that is if i ever get on to the game to actually use the system : (.

comment #9 by [60] Gandolph on Mar/08/06 @ 11:17 am

Geann I believe the points (RAP) drop back to zero once you use your points and you have to accumulate them all over again. You dont get more than 50 you can't store more than 50(bank) and they are all used in the roll so if you win you start accumulating all over.

comment #10 by [60] Foundation on Mar/08/06 @ 1:55 pm

Good posts all, 2 excellent points to touch on here:

"If someone just does not see a drop they are interested in... they start losing RAP for their participation? I hear plenty of stories about guilds going through, say, MC, and not getting a certain class' tier 1 drop for weeks at a time..." - Geann

Agreed, by my system it might seem as though you are capped out and not earning credit for your time spent raiding. My system however is also not designed to give a player an absolute number of points for their efforts, but rather a relative nudge to the "omg my rollz suck list".

Another way that DKP/RAP systems work is to assign an individual number of points to each item in the instance. Those items, being of a known and calculated value are bid on by players, often spending only a fraction of their total DPS/RAP to purchase any item. Players are also often allowed to accumulate points with no cap in mind. Systems like this however tend to "guarantee" the drops only get into the hands of hardcores and hardcores only.

Deathtyrant for example was in TFS for more than 2 months before he had caught up to the "Average player's" number of points earned and was finally able to roll on anything, this might be reasonable for your average 1x a week sort of raider, but DT was an every day (2-3x) raider and could play most of us under the table.

The 50 RAP cap I've created seems to me a reasonable length of raid-time to recognize that someone has not gotten a drop recently. Relative to others who HAVE gotten a drop in the last few weeks, the unlucky raider has an edge. The unlucky raider however is not guaranteed his drop, there is still an element of chance. My goal was to find a compromise whereby the hardcore and casual could get a more even distribution, with minimal carry over.

Looking at the right column in my spreadsheet, I see a lot of 0's and 1's counting how many drops people have gotten, and very few 2's and 3's. There are 32 people who have gotten no epic/blue drops from ZG, 17 who have gotten 1 drop, 6 who have gotten 2, and only 5 who have gotten 3. I believe that in my system there would be a more even distribution overall.

"This brings about a possible issue, pertaining to the "take it or DE" situations. If there is a drop, and no one has need, and it is passed to a member as default (my #1 method of receiving drops, it feels like), would this make an impact on their RAP accumulation (or a reversal thereof)?" - Ninox

I had anticipated this as an issue and am still working on a policy. I still firmly believe that we should not be de'ing anything that is useful to someone. We never have, and certainly never want to. If a item is taken by default though, i do believe that persons raid points should be reset. The advantage here is that you can possibly win that item with 0 points. One idea i have is to perhaps cut a persons RAP in half for winning a defaulted item.

...

Also, I have some ideas on how players might be able to spend raid points outside of raids that I will soon introduce if the rest of this system works out for us. My idea pertains to being able to request crafted items with your points.

comment #11 by [60] Harken on Mar/08/06 @ 3:06 pm

May have a few bumps along the way, but it does leave room for tweaking. I think this system will benefit all.

comment #12 by [60] Veldrin on Mar/08/06 @ 4:30 pm

Don't take my first post too seriously guys. Me, Valken, Deuder and T were long talking in TS as he was typing the original post so like the first 5 responses are purposely goofy (mine included).

I think what people most like about the new system is that most of the proponents of it get some of the least benefit of it (at least currently). T did a great job of making it be a loot equalizer rather then one that allows for "big time raiders" to get all the loot. Can't very well forget Bill's paycheck now can we?

Under T's "second phase" he actually addresses problems with no use for points you keep getting (aka the 50 cap) but it also comes with it's own problems that we'll definately have to discuss in time..

Anyways carry on.

comment #13 by [60] Proudeagle on Mar/08/06 @ 5:06 pm

I know you've been thinking about this for a while, and it shows in the detail. It does seem to fit the more casual nature of this guild, and will encourage wider partication in raids.

My one question would be why points would be reset for an item that no one else would use or roll on? We don't want to discourage folks from upgrading, holding out for something better. It would also be really unfortunate for a 50RAP player to lose all of their RAP for picking up something noone wanted, and then not have points available to use when/if their set piece does drop later in the dungeon.

Perhaps 15 RAP would be a fair price for a blue that no one else wanted, or all of your RAP points if the item is purple or BOE.

As someone just reaching the raiding stage, I'll certainly yield to those of you with more experience, but just wanted to put in my 2 cents.

-Proud

comment #14 by [60] Foundation on Mar/08/06 @ 5:22 pm

Agreed Proud, my only issue is when someone might get an item defaulted to them that they WOULD clearly want to use points on otherwise. (thus getting a great drop and keeping their 50 points) My idea so far that I think is a plausible compromise is to reward that person the item for a cost of half their points. Whatcha think?

comment #15 by [60] Barros on Mar/09/06 @ 12:01 am

First of all I have to say I like the idea of a system that gives a slight edge to people who have not gotten a drop recently from a raid, its a good way of evenly distributing loot.

A couple questions though:

First, if you dont have any points built up, do you roll out of 100 against the people with points rolling out of 50?

Second, if you only have a small amount of points, say 5 or 10, can you choose to roll out of 100 and save your points until you have more? If you only have 5 points the best you could roll is 55 and it may be better for you to try 1-100 and have the chance to roll above a 55. Then if you win rolling in this way, would you loose your 5 points even though you didnt use them to win?? I would think you should get to keep them.

Just my thoughts

Barros

comment #16 by [60] Foundation on Mar/09/06 @ 1:32 am

WIll attempt to answer both questions:

1). Items that drop in these instances are either point rolled items via /roll 50 ... or they are non point rolled items via /roll 100. So any item that drops is either a /roll 100 or a /roll 50 .. not both. If its a /roll 50 .. their RAP points are added, the winner looses all his points and noone else looses any. If its a /roll 100 ... it does not count as your blue/epic for the run.

2). a little off tangent I think, might want to reread my original post so you understand it better. Refer to 1) above. its not the attendees option as to whether he rolls 100 or 50 .. that is decided by the quality of the item dropped. You can roll on an item with no points ... best you can get is a 50 though if its a point required item. Still, rolling against ninox you might actually win.

Also ... all points on that character are spent regardless if you win a blue/epic.

comment #17 by [60] Peble on Mar/16/06 @ 12:35 am

i understand the point of doing this... but im not sure i like it.
what if some people have jobs and sports and other stuff they do....(like me) and arnt on as much to do raids. then if they show up to a raid they cant get sqwat becuase they have low points. and i think mostly everyone goes to these big instances to get a phat loot but why go if u know you have no chance of getting anything. that would make me not want to do raids at all....kind of seams unfair
i just experienced this tonight when i rolled and i won the roll out of 50 with a 47 and i didnt get it... this kind of ticked me off.

comment #18 by [60] Valken on Mar/16/06 @ 12:46 am

Works the other way too, peble. I have seen people with no points beat out some one with points for an item. This way you do have a chance at an item, even if it is your first raid.

--Valken

comment #19 by [60] Foundation on Mar/16/06 @ 1:05 am

The system is geared toward giving someone who has been to 10 raids (maximum) and not gotten anything ... a better chance than someone who has only been once, true. Its a rare situation when someone is guaranteed a drop. In fact we default many drop because people don't want to spend their points on an item. Read the system thoroughly and I think you might find its quite casual friendly. Its easiest to answer any questions you might have on TS as well.

comment #20 by [60] Ioss on Mar/16/06 @ 5:24 am

I've passed on the phat lewt many times, cause... It's not that awesome. couple of points here and there, in the long run it makes a difference, but if you only have 1 piece, it's not really that big of a deal. I've outfitted myself with some nice blues from runs, and most of them are stuff no one wanted that at the last minute I says "Wait. I'll use it" and a couple of times I've regretted that decision 2 minutes later, cause something I could have used droppes. The raid rewards can be nice, but as long as you take the chances to group, you can outfit yourself pretty well. I like the RAP system, cause it allows me to have a better chance at something I want. It's not based on "Every Doodad, Mage, Shaman roll now". Sure, I might lose still, but hey, those are the breaks, you might lose the regular roll anyhow.

comment #21 by [60] Peble on Mar/16/06 @ 6:16 pm

oh ok i think i get it now. it will probably take some getting used to.

comment #22 by [60] Foundation on Mar/19/06 @ 1:15 pm

10 raids in a row with no drops and now you'll be rolling 51's!! =)

comment #23 by [60] Valken on Mar/20/06 @ 12:20 pm

Yes I agree if you receive an epic, then you lose your points. Doesn't matter if it was defaulted to you, b/c nobody else wanted it or you were the only class that will benefit from it. This was the case in last nights raid.

Last I heard our goal was to get 5 active players from each class. Only problem is some are great at recruiting such as Deuder, and some suck such as me. I'll give you an example, it was I who got suttles into ADT, when I was with that guild (I know, I know...I told you I suck at recruiting :]).

Right now, Pesh, Enkidu, and myself can assign points. As we grow, and things change, this will probably change also.

Not sure what I think about bank items being tied in with RAP. Let me think on that one.

You and pesh bull-headed, bah!

--Valken

comment #24 by [60] Foundation on Mar/20/06 @ 2:01 pm

The problem with evaluating our current numbers for each class, is that a great majority cannot pick a main character still. (As I've said a million times already, *deep breathes*, and I'm not just targeting you X I promise) Additionally, many of our members have multiple characters that fit our end-game objectives. (Talis and Berlinn for example, dint he used to be a priest?) That coupled with the fact that not all even play nightly ... well, it just means that planning the 3 minimal hunts a week that we want to are still difficult to do some nights, especially if we aren't flexible as to where we go.

Typing /ginfo will tell you:

Guild created: 2-23-05, 323 players, 133 accounts.

My goal was always to have 5 actives from each class, this has proved to be a moving target. I do have a cap in mind on class numbers, but we haven't reached it yet. We will not have reached that cap until 40 man instances (wow's largest complication) are doable. Its worth noting, TFS has a mere 50 accounts i believe ... our problem in comparison is that we are built to be a casual guild, so enjoy it ...

We are short as heck on palies and warlocks.

"I would like to add an idea for getting more DKP for those who can be capped at 50 for awhile. How about we use 50 DKP capped for raids and 50 DKP capped for our bank." - xorcist

Someone has been listing to me talk on teamspeak, or maybe not listening heh, in either case most by now know that I've been working on a system for players to use RAP to buy items from GB. Again, I am not prepared to discuss it via the website where members can get caught up on every word, feel free to ask me on teamspeak however and I am happy to explain the system's merits.

This system relies on having actual valuable items in the guild bank, which atm we have mostly junk. I have a second system in mind for filling the guild bank, you are also welcome to ask me about this on teamspeak.

"In time this can become a problem because eventually some of us will have epics in which case a better epic will drop so they may want to use there points to get it. I just really hope I am in the right guild that these guys pass to give this item to someone who can use it more!!" - xorcist

If you haven't seen a pattern yet in FE whereby the majority of members exercise this logic, there may be no hope for you bud. Seriously ... its really not a greedy group, certainly not so much as to deserve the concern.

"I think epic items you should lose all your points period, even if it’s a /100 roll." - xorcist

They do :)

"That way at any given time the guild could build an effective raid group and not have to worry about…can I make the “scheduled” raid to get points?" - xorcist

We currently have myself, valken, and enkidu who are RAP officers. I want less, not more people in this position. I will however add more people as needed. I am not concerned with the occasional person missing points because a raid officer was not on that run. Thats just life, my goal is to have the majority of runs rewardable. 90% is fine by me.

"Only problem is some are great at recruiting such as Deuder, and some suck such as me." - valken

We do not recruit ... we invite. Big difference.

comment #25 by [60] Harken on Mar/20/06 @ 2:50 pm

No more alts please. This is killing me. Could we do more endgame runs? Yes. Why doesn't this happen, well most of the time people are logged onto their 3rd or 4th alt.
Alts should have a purpose, namely passing the time between raids or main runs, however increasingly alts seemingly are starting to dominate this guild. According to the latest Census records we are the 7th largest guild on the server, by that I mean both horde and alliance. Now ask yourself have we downed: Oxy-no, Mag-no, Hakkar-no, tried BWL-no. Granted we are a casual guild, but the game really starts at level 60. So people please play your mains, and let the alts be alts.

comment #26 by [60] Erdspark on Mar/20/06 @ 3:54 pm

Only Pesh gets the devilish red writing :)

comment #27 by [60] Foundation on Mar/20/06 @ 5:56 pm

"This one is for you Pesh, where am I able to see Helicon's bank item that we save? This was in my previous post too. Am I missing something or not seeing it?"

You dont get to see it. I'm not interested in tracking this stuff outside of game. Ask me any time online and I can answer your question in 30 seconds or less. I have a mod called "Possesions" that will let me see all items on Helicon. I keep only MC, ZG, AQ items on him. If its a trust issue for anyone they're in the wrong guild. (not targeting you X)

• http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=4048

comment #28 by [60] Valken on Mar/20/06 @ 7:47 pm

I personally don't want to have the qty of the guild's lava, fiery cores, core leather, etc on a public forum like this website.

Thinking on the dark side, someone could join just in hopes of getting these items, then /gquit right after that.

--Valken

comment #29 by [60] Foundation on Mar/20/06 @ 7:58 pm

I built the website from scratch, over 100+ hours into coding it. Quite successful overall as a community building tool, though there may be edits I make later to maximize our time spent using it. Just trying to be different is proibably the best way of describing it.

comment #30 by [60] Foundation on Mar/27/06 @ 12:31 am

a quick update on a new issue of multiple alt attendance.

comment #31 by [60] Thamoradra on Apr/13/06 @ 1:16 pm

Probly when we have things in the bank to buy.

comment #32 by [60] Khere on Apr/13/06 @ 1:29 pm

But we won't get stuff worth buying in the guild bank until we have a decent system for giving some decent reward (like RAP).

comment #33 by [60] Thamoradra on Apr/13/06 @ 1:31 pm

Exaxctly. This will probly go into effect once all our warriors have their BOE tier 1 bracers and then we can send them to the Guild Bank.Or once more essence of fire or air go into the bank.

comment #34 by [60] Khere on Apr/13/06 @ 1:35 pm

Funny you should mention the Valor bracers as I got a pair last night in End Loot from LBRS. I can sell it for some good cash but would much rather give it to the Guild bank or even directly to some 50-60 Warrior like Weohstan. Forgive me if I miss another warrior in that bracket.

comment #35 by [60] Thamoradra on Apr/13/06 @ 3:29 pm

Oh, I was talking about the Might Bracers from MC. Ones that would cost around 7-800 G in the AH. They could go to the GB and when a warrior needs them and has 50 RAP he could spend them on that instead.

comment #36 by [60] Foundation on Apr/13/06 @ 3:36 pm

We're not implimenting the RAP spending/earning program for a little while longer, I lack the people the make it work. And we're still working on how to manage the list of materials to be turned in etc. There really isnt more than 3 things in GB atm that people would want anyway.

comment #37 by [60] Thamoradra on Apr/13/06 @ 5:54 pm

Yeah but if we do that a person could spend all his RAP on a epic drop then the next day have 50 RAP up and ready to win another epic. I think It would open too many ways to manipulate the system. Now if only alts could sell things into the GB for RAP so alts could buy things then yeah id be all for that : )

comment #38 by [60] Foundation on Apr/13/06 @ 6:07 pm

Not ready to bring up a full discussion on this yet, just have to wait and see. Like the point system I've covered "most" of the bases though.